30 - Olha Rykhliuk, Ukraine to the US and its influence on her artistic journey.

The Intersection of Art, Photography, and Personal Resilience: A Conversation with Olha

Discover how Olha's journey from Ukraine to New York shaped her perspective on street and film photography, her relationship with art and technology, and her hopes for Ukraine’s future. This episode explores the deep connection between personal history, artistic expression, and the rapidly evolving role of AI in photography.Key Topics:

• Olha's migration from Ukraine to the United States and its influence on her artistic journey

• Transition from digital to film photography and the emphasis on mindful shooting

• The learning curve and community around film photography, including exploring stocks and expired film

• Ethical considerations in street photography, approaching strangers, and respecting privacy

• The impact of war and emotional storytelling through documentary photography

• Her work in augmented reality and balancing digital presence with analog authenticity

• The potential and pitfalls of AI in image analysis, editing, and copyright concerns

• The significance of physical photographs for preserving personal and family history

• Her creative aspirations: capturing remote, indigenous communities and documentary storytelling

• The inspiring story of Vivian Meyer and the importance of authentic voice in art

Timestamps: 

00:00 - Welcome and overview of Olha's photography journey

 03:33 - Starting with film to learn discipline and focus

 06:11 - Reflections on street photography in Ukraine during wartime

 08:56 - Ethical practices and approaching strangers in street photography

 12:08 - The story behind Olha’s Instagram handle "Small Secret Album"

 17:55 - Olha’s work in augmented reality and its influence on her art

 22:16 - Balancing analog art with digital and AI technologies

 26:18 - Concerns about AI and the use of personal images in training data

 31:01 - The subjective nature of what makes a good photograph

 34:12 - Future aspirations: documenting remote cultures and uncharted territories

 38:33 - The significance of preserving family history through physical photos

 43:49 - Reflection on life, memory, and the power of photography as proof of existence

 54:22 - The hopes for Ukraine’s future and the end of conflict

 56:33 - Closing thoughts and appreciation for creative expression

Join us for an enriching conversation about how art can serve as both personal therapy and cultural preservation, especially amid global upheaval. Whether you're into street photography, AI, or personal storytelling, this episode offers valuable reflections on maintaining authenticity and resilience through art.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There are a lot of conversations happening right now about the future of photography. AI, augmented reality, algorithms, and automation. You feel like everything is moving faster than ever. But every once in a while you meet someone whose work reminds you that photography has never really been about technology. It's always been about seeing. Today's guest, Olha Rikluk, a photographer originally from Ukraine, whose work is rooted in observation, patience, and genuine human connection. By day, she works in augmented reality, helping build new ways for people to experience the world through technology. But when she picks up a camera, she reaches for film, a medium that demands attention, slows the process down, and asks you to be fully present. In this conversation, we talk about growing up in Ukraine, how war changes the meaning of photographs, the ethics of street photography, preserving family history through physical prints, and why, even in an age of AI, the most important part about making an image is still the person behind the camera. This was a thoughtful conversation about memory, identity, and the role photography plays in proving that we were here, that these moments matter. These people and these stories mattered. Please enjoy my conversation with Oja Riko. First of all, I just want to say thank you so much for your time, Oha.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Thank you for having me here.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It's my pleasure. I just want to start really simple. You're originally from Ukraine.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

When did you first come to the States?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

First came here at the end of 2017.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Awesome. When did photography become a part of your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

It became a part, it's always been a part of my life. And I've had my camera for a long time, but it was mostly like for special events or for like trips, et cetera, et cetera, not for like everyday life. But in 2023, I actually, me and my husband, we moved to New York and we spent a year in a new city. And it's a beautiful city, like everything's going around. And but I did actually have no friends. So it was like a little time to get like good friends. So at like sometime during this year, I like, why won't I get a camera? And I lived on the lower east side, and there were like a bunch of these um camera shops, like you know, uh labs. And I'm like, why won't I try the film camera? And I think that started there, and I was immediately immersed into like photologies and all these like like-minded people, and I think that kind of started um started my like street photography uh streak in my life.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

So you started with film.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Uh yes, I did start with film. I've been always overwhelmed, uh like I do digital photography, but I'm always overwhelmed with like just basically going through your photos and processing them. For me, they just stay on the SD card forever until I eventually like check them out. Uh so I did uh start with Phil, and it did help me to like be focused on what I'm that I'm taking the picture, not like changing settings, actually looking through viewfinder and not maybe immediately getting that, oh, I missed that shot, or like immediately getting like immediately measuring like how I did and like giving up beforehand. It's just like it adds this delay where you can like kind of get a peace of mind and then afterwards, after a pause, process what you've done right, what you've done wrong, maybe you got a blank roll. Uh but for some reason that pace like really worked for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah, that's uh I I uh usually I tell young photographers or people that are starting out to start with film because the learning curve is so steep that it forces you to really learn. So, speaking of learning curve, how did you learn to take pictures with film?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Um lots of videos, uh, lots of trial and error. Uh trying to remembering, like I did have um, I did like um I when I was a kid, we had film cameras. Like I'm I'm kind of an older person. And uh, but I don't remember, like it was always like, oh, you're going on a trip, here's your 36 frames, and you're lucky if you get 36, because I remember we wouldn't have like 12 or 24, and then you like measure and like um like one per day or something, or two per day, no more, and like very like thinking very mindfully about what you're gonna invest them for. Um, but now as an older person, I can actually afford as much film uh as I want, and it was like it was such a fun experience to, as any like beginner film photographer, to try all the stocks, to try expired film, to try all the cameras, and cameras are kind of cheap, and lenses are kind of cheap. So you kind of get into this like a quick like let's go to try everything. And after that, um, and I think it's it's it's not good, it's not bad per se. Um, and it's not really like a gear acquisition because it's it's pretty cheap, right? Those lenses you can get them for like $30, $40. Um, but uh you get to like actually learn like this camera that only has one setting or it does not even have like a light meter, and you need to understand like physics, you need to understand your like ISO and understand the shutter speed, uh, versus as on the digital camera. I think like there's still some people who just like do let's just do auto and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Exactly. Yeah, that's the one thing people when people talk about how expensive film photography is, it's the actual film and the processing, and depending on how much you shoot, that is expensive. Because you can find incredible deals on cameras and on lenses. Like it's it's there is the amount of lenses there are is is astronomical. I mean, you know, not everybody I don't shoot with Leica, not everybody shoots with Leica. If you're not gonna shoot with Leica or Hasobla, then you know, if you want to stick to Nikon or, you know, Olympus or there's so many cameras out there. That's why I I don't really get caught up in in gear, especially when it comes to film photography. Um so you mentioned when you were in Ukraine, were you the one thing that drew me to you is your street photography. Um, which I have an immense respect for when people are able to because you have to put yourself out there. So were you shooting street photography in Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

No, I did not. And um right now it's uh it's really hard. You know, there is uh there's war in Ukraine right now, and I've only traveled after I like actually started shooting to Ukraine once. And um honestly, I was in such a weird state of mind. Um I was almost like afraid to take pictures, uh, mostly because there are um there's lots of people on the street. There is there's war on the street. Like any minute you can hear like aer raid and you need to go and take shelter. And here is me just wandering with a camera, like taking pictures. There are lots of veterans, there are lots of disabled people now that like have no limbs. And um, it's like there is no like culture yet of how to respectfully like document and photograph that. And so I ended up just spending that week like being like all emotional and maybe like taking some like architectural shot. And um and like the whole like you know, like people smiling in America, people who are friendly in America or fake friendly in America. Um, people in Ukraine are like not like that. Like no one like smiles or small talks to you on the street. So I think I still I I hope I can go back for a prolonged period of time and um actually like adapt to streets uh in my country and to to actually like document things that are important to me and to like to document this like whole um this country is basically being as old as me and just still going and fighting like through for its independence. And yeah. So hoping to finally photograph like this is the what's meaningful to me, and maybe that's like where I'm drawn to. And sometimes I feel like whatever I'm shooting now is like for fun or like unimportant or like for arts or for composition. Um, and there are like every like there's always like a more important things you should be doing.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah. So if if you were to go back to Ukraine right now, what would you shoot?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Um, so depending depending on like the bravery, um, there are I think just like telling the stories, um, telling the stories of people who don't have like homes anymore, um, who like had to flee and they only like saved certain things that are important to them, like certain like maybe family relics or like their pets or maybe even nothing. Um so there is a like there is a difference between like documentary photography, photojournalism, and like street photography, to my opinion, uh maybe I'm not right. Whereas documentary, you can just photograph real things like whatever, so reality. So if there is a uh missile attack on Kiev, and you would just basically go and photograph all this like the rumble and I don't know, maybe like that people. Uh but for me personally, I I don't think I have it in me. So I would basically try to photograph uh through like storytelling through my people on the street, like strangers you meet, um, stories they tell, um maybe environments they're in.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Um I think I I I strongly believe there's no rules in photography, but when I think of the difference between documentary photography and street photography, I always feel like documentary is there's easy there's an assignment, whether you're paid for or whether it's you documenting something. Um that to me that's documentary photography. And street photography for me is just you have a camera and you're walking around and and you're just you you have no idea what you're gonna shoot, you're just kind of shooting. But that's documenting as well. So I it's a I for me it doesn't really, you know. The the only time I think about it is on my website. I'm like, uh, should I have a street photography or should I have documentary? I just have doc, you know, documentary photography.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

I feel like ever since we spend the documentary and we just basically capturing the time we live in and like 20, 30 years, those people people holding phones, we consider annoying scene on our pictures now. Maybe like in 20 years, it will be something oh cool. Like we look at like photos from like 80s now.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Exactly. Let me ask you a question. Uh, your approach to street photography, when when you take a picture of somebody, do you then approach them and try to connect with them to share the picture, or do you feel like you know you capture a picture and that's your picture and you just keep it moving?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah. So um there is like a very like unspoken like rules and feeling about that. So usually um I try not to like you know, like be very like blunt about, oh, you're in public space, I took your pictures, like I'm allowed to buy, like be aggressive about that. Um I am trying to first of all like snap, like acknowledge myself, even if I did take a picture before I actually like uh did an eye contact. I try to like most of the time I try to explain why I did it. So I would say, like, oh, your silhouette looks like so nice, or like your like your care looks great with on that background, or like your head is so fun, so I just got like your silhouette. Um so I'm I'm always trying to to do that. It's kind of easier for me, like being a woman, to do that because like basically there is like less um less harm aspect expected, I'd say. Um sometimes I would say like, oh, I'm a street photographer, or like I'm I'm in, I'm doing this photo course and I have an assignment. Um so yeah, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

And I bl we met at the uh the Lufthansen event at the Universal Studios, correct? Yeah, and I believe, I believe, uh I'm I know I was with my daughter, but I believe you you I think you came up to me and asked if you could take my picture.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

I did not ask, yeah, I did not that I like acknowledged myself. Um so there is also like a big um so I'm trying to keep with like ethics of street photography. Yeah, and hopefully like um after this was like long after, um maybe I'm I'm losing my uh the timeline of my life.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

This was last year, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

I did a photography course with in LA with Julia Dean, and part of her like first session was actually like ethics um in stream photography, like what you're allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do, and like um, and I also think there's like a big um ethics questions like photographing children, um, and just just there's like lots of weirdos on the internet and uh lots of like parents who don't want their picture their um children photographed. So um I trying to so for for your daughter, I did take a picture from like you carrying her from the back, so there's no one like a child's face, basically like looking at the cars and you were dressed so cute and like matching outfits. Um and yeah, so I did uh so usually do that and in LA, like specifically, um like Spanish community, they I'd say till lately they did like to be photographed, and they were excited for her kids to their kids to be photographed. They were sometimes just like, here's my kid, etc. etc. It's changed drastically with all the uh ice action, of course, and there's also changed the all the mood of like going to all these like famous LA places to take pictures of. And at some point I like kind of lost, like so I would just sometimes just walk around and take no picture, but just kind of like try to absorb or like think like what uh what would I have taken if I felt like more comfortable and these people felt more comfortable. Uh, but that's like a good question. And I think like every time we like photograph kids, we should be like very like mindful about them, how they look, like how how the parents perceive it. Um, but I would not restrict it because it's just such a good content. They're usually like so emotional, they're usually so cute, and like it's such a like so much the photograph is so much better if there is like a child reaction on it into like something happening.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Absolutely. And that that's a different situation because you know we pay to walk in and we're kind of in a in in an event space, and there were people that were hired to actually take pictures. The only reason I forget is because um my daughter and I did have our picture taken quite a few times that day, um, which I I appreciate very much. Um I I guess you definitely weren't one of them, but there was a couple people that took our picture and then were walking away, and I had to walk up to them and be like, hey, you know, and they thought I was upset, but I was just telling them, I was like, hey, why wouldn't you want to exchange your like it's it's so easy with Instagram now? Why wouldn't you at least ask for my Instagram and then share the image? And one thing I love to say is like I like to give an image as opposed to take an image because it's like uh there's so many people that take pictures and they're street photographers and they have that attitude of like, oh, it's public domain and blah blah blah blah blah they become a lawyer really quick. But I feel like if you're taking a picture of per of a person, that person you should be most excited for that person to see the picture.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

So, but that that's just that's just my take. Um and so since we're on that subject, what is your relationship with cars?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Um, what's my relationship with cars? I love cars, I love driving a lot. Um, so I'm not saying like a gearhead and I won't give you specs, etc. etc. But I do love um different like driving courses, like extreme driving or like drifting. Um not a big specialist, but uh my husband's also into like cars, and I've been blessed to be able to drive uh good cars, just drove from LA yesterday. Uh so uh but um I've like actually like maybe when my love to like actually like street or events kind of started, uh is attending this um car week in Monterey a couple years back. And I was just so excited. There was just like was endless content, just people basically not even noticing you, but being so immersed into what's around and also like this beautiful like context all around, the beautiful cars, the rarest cars, and maybe the ones you've like heard about, and you actually get to see them. And um just overall, such a beautiful experience. And I do hope to actually get there next week if there are still tickets. Um yeah, and one of my um, I'd say I'm not a famous photographer, of course, but one of the photographs I really like and I really proud of is actually coming from that um from that event.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Oh, amazing. You're gonna have to send it to me specifically so I can display it. Um because at the Lufthansa event, I'm just wondering, was did you go because of the cars? Did you go because it was at Universal Studios? Did you go to what what was your main reason for going and documenting?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Gone, uh I went there before because of like Porsche's, of course. Um also basically to photograph people expressing their emotions around cars. Um yeah, and also never been to Universal before that. So that was like all together.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

That was a really cool experience. My daughter loved it, I loved it. It was like uh next time I'm I'll try to go earlier if they ever have it there next time. Um I wanted to touch on your your day job. You work in augmented reality?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Um can you explain? I mean, we probably know the definition of that, but can you explain what that entails?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Um yeah. So uh basically my job is like a software engineering job, but related to um augmented reality, uh, which is like everyone's familiar with virtual reality, where you can walk in all these like 3D worlds, whereas augmented reality is where you actually overlay the virtual world, the real world with the virtual one, uh, through different um kinds of ML um powered uh like trackings, like world tracking, location, uh face, um, object, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

So you started with film photography and you expressed that one of the reasons why you love film photography as opposed to digital photography is um I'm gonna interpret that as staying in the moment and staying present. So how how do you balance that with working in augmented reality?

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Um so that was actually that's actually a very good question. So I think first of all, uh like just doing photography in general and like doing or like doing any kinds of art um uh other than photography is basically trying to step away from this like digital or like corporate world of like very fast-changing things from releases and from the AI like taking over and all the projects getting so much faster. So that was like a like my going away from things and like staying analog and maybe even like staying away from my phone. I don't really like making stories or content or like taking behind the scenes that is so annoying to me. Like when I'm around taking pictures, my phone is like in my backpack, and um, so I'm not answering anything. Um and I've been but over like I've been trying to connect, like sometimes. Sometimes when we do like some prototypes, a job, I would for some reason just connect whatever I learned, for example, from from my photography and just just kind of like use it as a theme. Um, but yeah, it's it's been it's been kind of hard. And also like maybe with the rise of um like generative AI, this like value, like you can have this beautiful picture, like so easy, just like prompt it and you have it, and just actually switch it's like uh when you're forced to do one thing, your like whole mind is just like tries to do the completely opposite and go into this like completely analog thing. Whereas you can prove that this is an edit that so easily because you actually like have your negative and proof that this is a real actual visible thing, uh, rather than I don't know, some like blob of data.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

What is your professional relationship with AI?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Um everyday relationship. Just before that, had a meeting about AI, like yeah, AI. So everywhere. Um and uh again, like over the last year, um, my social media have not been really active. I think like the pace of uh development started to like um add up so much, and my mind would be just like exhausted. And on the weekend when I actually get to go, like and get in a state of mind and take pictures, I would rather be just um I don't know, just chilling, reading, um not thinking, not talking to people. Uh but um I would not say uh it's all like that. And lately I've been like, oh, I I don't have like um I just moved, um I don't know like where to go yet. I'm like not have not like container settles yet. I'm like, what can I do right now? Maybe there's something I can do. And I was just like, let me apply the knowledge I do. So, for example, recently I had projects related to model context. Protocol um in uh in the software we work on. And I'm like, let me actually, and I'm like usually on the developer experience side. So I would be like making these tools and teaching people how to use the tools, and now like as of lately, teaching AI to use these tools. And I was like, let me actually be a user of this technology. And um, I had this uh the design of my website um made by my friend about a year ago, and we never ended up like actually like building it uh or deploying it. And I'm like, let me just use everything I know and try to apply it for this uh for for actually something that maybe to build your website. Yeah, to build my website, which is something I just own my backlog. I would need it to do it. Like if someone googles me, I want them to silly something and not some other person. Um yeah, so just like connect like that, one, two, three Figma MCP to code code and then some iterations, and uh you can actually have your like website done. It was like within two subscriptions for $20 and maybe like three days' work. Um yeah, there are so many good solutions right now. There's of course like ready-to-go solutions, uh, but it was kind of fun to connect some pieces together, connect like the the back end and uh my design, and also uh like store my photographs and learn like how should I store my photographs so AI does not take advantage of them. This is also important. And there are certain things you can do, um, for example, on your website in order to um kind of prevent it from being scrapped by AI, but I would say that only applies to the ones that actually play by rules. Um yeah, so yeah, if I'm I'm gonna try to um maybe share some like tips and tricks uh later as I learn more. Uh but yeah, I would not so there are some things that could help um photographers to maybe take care of the things that are actually boring and could save your time. For example, my library, uh, I try to keep it organized and I name everything, like every folder to be like year, month, date, and then look at something. Uh but sometimes I just like reorder day and month, and like ever since then I cannot find things, or just name folder or just gets imported somewhere and just leverage an AI to maybe organize and name everything properly up to date, which actually will is gonna save you um some time later. Or maybe you can even allow it to browse it and you can find oh find that photograph I took three hours ago that had like, I don't know, like uh Joshua Tree rocks on it. I actually find it reservation.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

That's what I think about a lot, is is because my I have pictures all over the place. I mean, I use Adobe still, so like Adobe Lightroom is where I have a lot of my images cataloged. But as far as like if oh, I want to post something on Instagram or I'm working on this thing or I'm doing something from a website, I feel like I'm always starting from scratch with like, okay, let me get my portraits, let me get my street photography, let me get a car photography, let me go film photography. So one of the things that I've been using ChatGPT, but I'm gonna be switching to um where it's can you can easily integrate um everything in Chat GPT and just integrate it over because that's the only reason I'm still on Chat GPT, is because um, I mean, I'm sure it's listening to me right now, it's gonna have its feelings hurt. But I just have such a relationship, a relationship with it because it knows everything. It helps me with the podcast press and it helps me with my uh media company. So it has kind of a relationship with me where it will um pull from some past conversations we've had. So I don't have to keep prompting it. But then finding out that anthropic can easily just integrate that as well. Where I want to go back to what you said about um AI taking advantage of your photographs. What exactly did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Um, I feel there is some like conception, misconception. I also am not the person to like confirm or deny. Um, like photographers would be like, I want to post my pictures, because like models, generating models can be trained on them, and then uh there could be pictures generated just like that, and uh so on and so on. So I just don't want to feed um the beast. Um, so maybe that's um but um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Because if we're if we're anything we post online is feeding the beast, correct? So anything on my website, it's it's it's constantly scouring the website for information and for images and for reference points. So um I thought you meant maybe kind of like uploading your images specifically to an AI agent where then they can use them for something else.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, yeah, that's also like if you like, oh, what's in like what do you think about this picture? Um so um to my underscores I don't work in entropic, it don't work in open AI. Uh the data we fit, so of course, all the sessions like are stored or retained for some time, uh, but uh it's not supposed to be used as a training data. Like there are separate training data, and your conversations are not supposed to be used as a training data. So it's kind of safe to send your pictures to ChatGPT for analysis, but also it's like it's not what you think. Like it cannot provide you with some good feedback. Uh it's only um, yeah, it's it's it's not like magic. Uh so understanding like how that is done. It can only so basically what it does, it can annotate the picture and then analyze the annotation of that picture. So for example, it would analyze. So the first the model will like try to understand what's so oh, this is a picture of like a um beach, and there is like a I don't know, like a boat, etc. etc. And then based on that description, it would try to like maybe provide you with suggestions uh of your composition, or et cetera, et cetera. So that's not completely valid, but there are specific like databases. Uh I once tried to do a prototype, but I didn't and did not end up like finding a good database of like photographs and like good um, so imagine there is a database of photo and a feedback on each photo, like um from like professional or someone from from like composition, lighting, moving composition-wise, um, exposure-wise, like story-wise, content-wise. And then there would be like uh thousands and and millions of those pictures annotated. Then there could be a tool that could actually like provide you a good and like meaningful feedback wherever you feed your photograph. Like, this is the uh result. Um, but yeah, this is like uh like do we want that? Do we not want that? Do we still want to have like people, artists who build their like whose life is to learn how to take a good picture that then they pass on uh this craft and to kind of keep this more humane?

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah, I mean that's interesting because even among humans, it's a debate what is a good photograph, you know, whether you know, composition is does composition have to be centered or does it have to be off-centered or what whatever the case may be? And it just I mean it's always uh it's always left to interpretation, you know, what what kind of photography, what's tasteful, what's not tasteful, what's racy, what's too sexual, what's this, what's that, you know? So um, yeah, I mean that's that's a that's a I feel like that's a slippery slope, but it it you could take a course at a university and that photographer is whoever's teaching that course is going off of years of past photographers and then also a little bit of their taste. But that doesn't necessarily mean that if you follow everything that person says that you're gonna have a successful career, whatever that means to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

So I feel like as long as we understand that AI is almost like a voting poll. Like this is what most people say is a good photograph, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that still leaves room for, well, you know, a subculture of people, well, no, I like my pictures super dark where you can barely make out what it is, you know. Because most people would interpret that as a horrible picture because the lighting is completely so it just Yeah, it's uh totally true.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

If if we had a like if we use the eye to find out the formula of like a perfect photo, like perfect composition, exposure, et cetera, it would just be the same photo, like or almost the same photo from everyone. And I do really appreciate people who just do a very niche thing and they just do it, and they just do it over the years until it becomes like a the when everyone thinks about that, they think about that specific person. And I'm like, so I'm I'm like a not not a brave person, and I like I'm just play by rules. I'm like a good student as I'll be just like trying to follow instructions. But I like personally, I admire people who are bold and who do those pictures where you like see nothing but just like a couple like bright pixels. Uh but because they just stick to it and they don't seek validation specifically, it just becomes such a cool thing that then they become featured as for I don't know, someone who established that whole movement.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

It's definitely easy, easier for to be hired that way. Because whoever is the gatekeeper of hiring you, whether it's a creative director or a marketing director, they want to know exactly what you're doing. And I my my brother always told me because I was into fashion, I was in the sports, I was in the street, I was in a documentary, and he told always told me he's like, you know, if you want to make money doing what you do, you have to focus on one thing. Like, even if you just shot bananas, like you would be known as the banana guy. And if anybody wants to take a picture of a banana all over the world, they're gonna hire you, you know. But for me, that's it's another reason why I'm able to do the podcast. It's another reason why I love storytelling, is because I don't have a niche, you know? Um, which has also hurt my photographic career because people are like, I don't know if he shoots cars, if he takes portraits, if he this or that. But I do admire people that um that definitely have a niche. So you uh now live in San Francisco? Have you been able to explore and and I know you just moved there, but uh when have you been able to explore street photography in San Francisco?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Uh so after I moved here, not yet, but when we were like shopping around for the neighborhood, I did. And um, yeah, enjoying the Chinatown a lot, enjoying the like the architecture. I really want to go to Presidio again and actually get some good shots of uh this beautiful place. Um also very excited to go to the I think it's called Science Center um in the Golden Gate Park, the one with lots of nature and beautiful light. Um I was I went there once, I took pictures. Um they're probably too old to be posted. Uh, but these are like some of the places on my list. Um to go first. And yeah, don't want to go to like the pier, etc., etc.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Fishman's wharf.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah, there's just yeah, too much, too touristy.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Yeah. Um where where do you hope your photography takes you, or where do you hope to accomplish with your photography?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Um, this is a very good question, and um it's very selfish for me. Um, so I'm a person with uh we all have disorders. I need uh like I measure myself with something done, and um I love the finished product, you mean like the finish whatever the doing something, like painting something, or like like taking a picture, making a post, or I don't know, like making some house projects. And um so that is one, and um and one of the things uh that um it's kind of like what I plan to do is have this thing. Uh when I get older, as I get older, I'm so afraid to be like bored. I want to stay like to to to have like interesting things to do. And I hope until I get older and I retire, I actually get good at it. Uh so like I can have a thing like not be like old and sudden grandma or something, but actually be a fun grandma that just goes and takes pictures all around.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Have you seen um I mean I think being staying stimulated is the most important thing in the world. And that's why when people would talk about retirement, I'm like, I'm never gonna retire. Like because I what I do is what I always want to do. Have you seen um finding Vivian Meyer?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Uh yeah. Uh I don't think I've the the is that a movie?

SPEAKER_02 35:31

It's there's a documentary. The Vivian Meyer is a photographer who was discovered.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

I saw it end to end, but I've seen lots of like shorter forms of content the exhibition. Um, but and the whole story of obviously you should definitely watch the whole story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Because you don't want to end up like Vivian Meyer, who is somebody well, actually, maybe you could end up like Vivian Meyer. It's just that she was never really discovered, but her photography was amazing and she just kept she just shot all the time. You know, and she that people just thought she was like an older nanny who just you know had a camera around. Of course, that was like a different time.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Because we did not have social media back then.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. She would have blew up. Um what would you say, like if somebody were to give you an assignment right now, what would be your dream job for photography?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

My dream job, um, I'd say I would love to do like a go into a tribe and photograph their life for like a half a year and live with a tribe or something like that. Um probably not like a dangerous places, but more like you know, national geographic kinds of things. Or like go on a remote island and there's like 10 people in the population, and you just basically get into life and like just photographing the like the mundane, like the people and their environment and their work. Um I think that'd be cool. And basically just going somewhere like very remote and far, so you can actually focus on photography.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Um constantly, yeah, just checking in. What excites you about that? Um or what inspires you about that?

SPEAKER_00 37:13

I think there is like certain um so doing a street photography like ever since the moment, like um just just having like a catching this moment, noticing that something's gonna happen, and this is just a stranger and like a coincidence, and cetera, et cetera, and you just got it and you left and you're like never like coming back again, uh, versus as um I think assignment like that and documentary like that actually like makes you like so connected and immersed. And then at the end, let's say you need to actually like present not just a like a photograph that is someone just like puts like on and like goes on, uh but actually like provide like a whole story, um, and whatever whatever is like needs to be told about uh places untold or like um people or environment, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

Your Instagram is called Small Secret Album. Can you explain that name?

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Um yeah, so that was actually um historically happened like that. Um at some moment, so like I also like paint the time from time. I'm not like a big artist, but I do love to do that. And long time ago, I wanted to go and actually make an Instagram for like some paintings. So I created this small secret album. And then years later, I was like, why don't I post my photography? And then I just oh, I already have this Instagram, so I just keep using it. And at the beginning, for some reason, I tried to keep my profile like so like very like um abstract from like a person as me. So it was just like, you know, like genderless, like nothing less, you don't know who it is, what kind of album it is. For some reason, I was like maybe afraid of like being a woman or like posting like some dumb things, et cetera, et cetera. Uh so it just stayed like that. And then at some moment at some point of time when I started to actually be immersed in a life photography community, someone would just like recognize me, and I was just okay, let's just go with it and not change it. I hate when people change their handles because they like, no, I I don't remember who you are. I just remember. I can just connect your like your visuals to your handle and then just don't change it with.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah, I mean, I I um I had to be reminded of your name because I was searching your name and I was like, why isn't it coming up? And I was like, oh, because it's my secret. So what what came first? Photography or painting?

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Um painting came first.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

What type of painting?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Uh any kind, like pastel, like sketch, oil. Um I used to go to um art school, art, I don't know. When I was a kid, it's not an art school, whatever section where you paint. Art classes, yeah. Uh but yeah, for some reason I I was just like a real child, so I did not stick to it. Uh, but I loved it. And I would love to go back to that. Uh so my job did not end up being connected with art in any ways. Uh, but this is like a type of expression that I need. Like I need to be like creating something or building something, and photography is just like a one aspect of it. It's basically just like I don't know, it's just like proving you are alive and you're like doing these like tangible things, like applicable things, um, applied arts, etc. etc. And photography is just like um I'd say not necessarily an easier medium, you know, like it's hard to do oil painting because just like you need all lots of things.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

I I would say uh 100% it's an easier medium.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, you do lots of like you take a picture, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

It's like I didn't even call myself an artist for the longest time because I was like, I need a hammer in order to nail, like I need a camera to take a picture. Painting, you have a white canvas and you have some paint, uh that's totally different.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Yeah, but you know, like oftentimes you would just basically paint how you see the world, what you see. Um, so at maybe at the beginning I thought photography could be like uh just like a you know, do more in less time, but that that ended up being like a whole new world of like things you can do, and it's also endless, and you can be as involved in the process as you want to, and you can make it as difficult as you want if you want to, I don't know, develop your own film or print your own uh prints. It just it can be so much more complicated than than doing something. Such is life, and it's actually a value because I tried like to paint digitally, and for some reason it just lost all like all satisfaction from it. Like I what does that mean? Like uh with an iPad or well, yeah, it's like on in an iPad, like in Photoshop or Illustrator, like I'm not liking it.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't call that painting. That that's something that's almost like graphic design. Do you feel like um your painting influences your photography or your photography can influence your painting?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

This is so weird. Uh because like my photography, in photography, I tend to like all this like monochromatic like wiceness, like empty space versus in painting. I just like put prime colors and just like everything so like bright and vivid. I just like like a feeling of like a juicy, juicy painting. Well, I'm not I'm not like a professional artist, I just like the process. Uh yeah, so it's like completely opposite. It's cool. You would not consider it being done by the same person.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

It's uh well, maybe it does influence it just because it's such a contradiction of each other, or maybe they're just completely different mediums for you, which that might make sense too. Um what um what do you hope to when you look back at the images that you're taking and and your photography career, what do you hope to look back on?

SPEAKER_00 43:19

To look back on. Um so again, this uh photography for me is like so the the older you get, like the faster it feels like your life is like passing on faster and faster. And I remember so much of my childhood, like so detailed, but then the the the older I get, like the less and less and I remember. And I think photography so much, even if I'm not taking pictures of like myself or my family, it's basically like gives me like a moment that I remember very well. Like every of the photographs I've taken and I look at, I remember how I took it. I remember how I felt, where I was, like. Maybe what camera would have taken with. And I feel like maybe when I'm old and I have a dementia or whatever, just looking at them, which is gonna just bring me some memories and just yeah. So this is like a I don't know, just proving you've been here in this world on this planet, and these are like proofs that you've been there. Um yeah, so no like very, like very big goal, and maybe that's what does not make me like a very successful photographer, is not having like a goal to be like uh someone like as known as I don't know, Vivian Meyer. I don't have that in mind, but yeah, this is just kind of to make to kind of film my life to help me keep track of my life and uh to create like something beautiful and tangible that I can look at.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

I think that's what it's all about. I mean, whether you're taking pictures of your family or whether you're taking pictures that interest you, that have nothing to do with your family, I think the most important thing is is continuingly to document. Me speaking from experience, um, I've lost most of my all of my immediate family, and the only thing that I have are all these physical pictures. So, and most recently um my father passed away. I had to go to Iran and deal with with a lot of things, but I found images of myself, of my brother, um, of of my parents when they first started their romance, of people in my family that I didn't I never met, but this is what I have, and to this day, it's the most valuable thing I have. And you know, I'm I'm in the process of of scanning them just so if anything happens, they're on the cloud for my daughter and hopefully her children. But there's still nothing as valuable as the actual physical photographs themselves because they're tangible, um they're just tangible objects that no matter how much I look on the screen and how much I scan them, they're never gonna be as important as the actual images because my parents, my family, they actually held those images. You know? So it goes back to what you're saying. I think that's all that we can that's all that we can hope for. Um speaking of that, uh just because everything is constantly changing, but when there's a war going on, things are really changing. Can you tell me what you remember of your childhood growing up in Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Um, absolutely. Um childhood was um, so I was born, I'm not gonna disclose when I was born, about the same time as my country declared its independence uh from Soviet Union from Russia. Uh so my like very um young childhood was it's kind of like in this country that is it's kind of mass, it's just trying to build its um like to rebuild, maybe preserve yeah, its dignity, its history, um, it's to kind of like settle the the the government to get rid of uh bureaucracy, etc. etc. And uh this was a time of like changing where like the the money have been changing, there was um corruption, there were uh there was a crime. And um I was blessed to live in like a pretty safe um city, uh, but it was like a just like a poor time. So yeah, like I did not have like a good access to like either like art or like music school or nothing like that. So for some reason, I'm like I at some point I was like, mom, like why didn't you let me do this and that? And she was like, it was just like life like that. So maybe me just trying all the things now is kind of like catching up on all the fun things I should have done and be like done with when I was a kid. Um but yeah, I'm I'm I was blessed to go to college. Uh it's easier to do that for free in Ukraine, actually, to get an education because you still get the government-funded education if you're a good student. And that actually kind of brought me to my profession. But lots of like uh choices that were made for my career were not made like where I go, like what I actually go and study, were like from what actually can bring me like some money to uh support my family. So lots of decisions were like forced rather than like chosen as like a passion. Um, so there was definitely no way I would in some way be go to like art school and study art because that would have not helped us at all. Um, but yeah, it's a beautiful country, uh it's a beautiful nature. Um, everyone I meet who tell me they were to Ukraine, they love it, and I hope war ends and we can finally go back and um and rebuild and see and open this to the world.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Yeah, me too. Um, but it sounds like you were exposed to art and photography, and it sounds like you were exposed to and able to explore arts.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Um yeah, as a kid, as a kid from from not a full family, you were allowed to do some things for free. So yeah. Um to do that.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Uh when you were when you were doing it, it wasn't like uh this is never gonna be a profession. This is this is just playtime.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Yeah, just playtime. Yeah, yeah. Uh also like my um I'm a very I'm my grandpa's kid. I love my grandpa very much. Um his uh his dad now, but he was such a like a he was such a like a known person, and he was like a cool principal, like everyone loved him, and he's like tall, and he's like sing and he took pictures and he did crafts. And um as like when I uh was growing up, he he's gotten sick, he's gotten the Parkinson disease. So I like so I kind of got his like sun sunset of his like active years, and then it was just like taking care of him. But basically, all these stories about him being young and doing these things and that, and having like a Kiev um photo camera and taking pictures and seeing those pictures, and just basically all these like idealistic stories passed on both from him and from my mom. I think that also kind of like makes me like her. Yes, interests me, so in some way trying to um be like him.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

What was his name?

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Um Alexi.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Alexi, what kind of pictures did Alexi did Grandpa Alexi take?

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Um, so whatever I saw were just like uh travel pictures, pictures of the family, probably similar to the pictures you've mentioned, uh like um in um like moments of life important to the family. Um he's also been like they've did a lot of touristic trips, um, so all this like nature, there's lots of beautiful nature in Carpathian Mountains, in Crimea, in Ukraine. Um lots of like there are places with more of like a southern climate, with like palm trees, et cetera, et cetera. And as a kid I saw them like, oh palm trees, I've never seen palm trees. And yeah, that was like Do you have any of those images? I don't have them with me, but this is one of my as you mentioned about digitizing your um family's photos. This is something I need to do, and I need to go back to my mom's attic and dig out those uh photo, like no, the big photo albums. Um that yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Is that attic in Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Okay. What it could you go to Ukraine right now if you wanted to?

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Yes. Um, not like right right now, like as a woman. As a woman, uh, I did go two years ago. Um, I can go, like, and most important, I can leave the country. Um, yeah, if you won't they won't take you in the army. Yeah. Uh so I can travel. Uh last time I traveled, uh, I was blessed. I also traveled to Kiev and bossed to buy my country. It was like mostly like a quiet week of time, but at some point during this week, you're just walking, and like it's so surreal because life just see Kiev just keeps living. Like people are on the streets, people are in cafes, and everything seems so normal. And then at some point you hear the sound of this like a flying drone, and you hear the sirens, and momentarily everything becomes like so surreal, like you don't know where to run, where you know where to go. And uh yeah, it's just like I'm I'm so like people are so resilient, but it's it's like it's so hard to comprehend what's going on. Like every night, you don't know if you're gonna sleep at night, if you need to go and run, if you're gonna wake up and there is no apartment. So, yeah, this is like you can go, but do you really want to go? Like, it's yeah, do you have to add more like risk? And right now I'm blessed to be here, and I'm blessed to be able to support like my family from here. Um they are like in the relatively safe uh area of Ukraine, thanks, God. Um, and the other parts of my family we actually uh we brought them here. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

So Well, that's it. So what what do you think the future of? I know this is a loaded question, but what do you think the future is for Ukraine?

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Um this war needs to be over, and Ukraine needs to win the war, and Russia just needs to. I'm sorry, this is not a political podcast, but Russia.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

No, I mean it's just about about life.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Russia is just so unnecessary. It's just like we we fought the communism like everywhere, but now there is this humongous country, and everyone just keeps like going with whatever's happening, just keeps giving its money just because it's so big, and just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

I'm not a I'm not a politician, but um none of us are, even the politicians are politicians, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

And every night I just pray those people just like yeah, don't wake up in the morning, and of course there's like lots of people involved, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

What is what is winning the war mean?

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Um it means that uh basically seas of fire. Yeah the all the like for my my best scenario, Russia just like implodes and they end up having, I don't know, civil war, and they just fight their own things and they break into like 50 different small countries, and that would be like so they don't have capabilities. They just don't have capabilities to be invading the other world, they just care about their old things and I don't know, it's just it's just I don't know how it's still standing, like what's going on?

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah, it's interesting because there's a lot of conflicts like this around the world, and it's or there are sorry, there's similar conflicts like this around the world where even if they were to stop today, it just seems like in the just like they could pick back up later, you know.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is not like any kind of like restriction, like slowing downs, like pausing, it's not gonna work. It just needs to end drastically. Just need to end and never come back.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Yeah. Well, uh, I really appreciate your time. I really appreciate talking to you. I really um enjoy your photography and um your creative expression. And it's been a pleasure talking to you and being able to ask you questions. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate you. I appreciate you having me here. Sorry for driving this too political.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

No, I not at all. I it was questions that I asked. And it's it's um, you know, this this isn't a technical podcast, it's always been about uh the creative process, and it's always meant to inspire people. And this has completely been about your creative process, and um, you know, I can't see how this podcast wouldn't inspire people to pick up and take a picture, or pick up and do whatever they they plan to do. So I appreciate your time once again, and and thank you so much for being honest and opening up.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Thank you for listening to Shoe Wisely. If you found something in this conversation that inspired you, moved you, or made you think a little differently, please share it with someone who might need to hear it. Your support means a lot and it truly helps the show grow. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, and leave a review or comment on your favorite podcast platform. Those small actions make a big difference and help more people discover these conversations. I'm your host, Amir Bahemi. And remember, create with intention, live with curiosity, and always shoot wisely.